Carleton Sheets Scam Details 2011
Over the past 5 years, I have ordered the real estate investing packages from Carleton Sheets and John/Greg Rice (the midget realtors). While I did not get taken in to pay more for the “one-on-one” training or the “exclusive seminars,” I know I wasted over $250 on the introductory packages. It took me several years of trying to use the offered concepts and strategies to realize it was nonsense. I was confused and frustrated that the folks on the infomercials made the system work and I could not. I thought that if real estate investing worked anywhere, it would certainly work in Las Vegas where I live? By the time I realized the stuff was crap it was too late to get my money back!
The “light of day” finally broke through after I got married to an experienced mortgage broker. My new wife found my Carleton Sheets stuff hidden in a garage sale box and laughed. I told her that I didn't see what was funny. I had spent nearly 3 years before we met trying this stuff to no luck! She sat me down and explained exactly why Carleton Sheets' system as well as a dozen other similar systems may have worked 5 years ago, but none of them will ever work today. In about 1 hour I got a lesson in the reality of investment real estate mortgage financing. Here is what I learned from my new wife, a mortgage broker for over 12 years in Nevada, Arizona and Colorado. I talked with 4 other mortgage brokers in her office and got the same information.
Prior to 1998, it was possible to buy a property, fix it up quickly and cheaply, and then resell it for $10,000s in profit. Now known as “flipping,” many mortgage lenders did not care as long as the property appraised out at the higher value. What turned the tides on this “money making” industry was the incredible increase in foreclosures that began in 1999 and has blossomed over the last 4 years. Mortgage lenders that had refinanced properties valued at $100,000 were finding them to be worth lots less when they went to foreclosure. As more properties went into foreclosure, property values dropped. (Property value is based partly on the previous sale of comparable properties.) It doesn't take banks long losing money to change.
Since 2001, states have begun to implement “anti-flipping” laws that go after real estate investors and appraisers who artificially inflate property values. Appraisers must now look for comparable properties within a 1 or 2 mile radius of the subject property to get fair market values. Many states now require anyone selling more than a few properties a year to obtain a real estate broker's license. As of 2003, my wife could not think of any mortgage lender that would refinance a property for cash out if the property was owned for less than 6 months and most require 12 months. Even then, the owner had to show real receipts for improvements!
If someone had to sell their home after less than 12 months residency in it, the original purchase price would be used as the appraised value. Also, people hoping to buy homes below their appraised value and then get the difference as cash at closing will be sad to know it can't be done! Mortgage lenders will lend money based on a property's purchase price or appraised value at time of sale – whichever is LOWER.
Flipping real estate became such a money loser for mortgage lenders that they have refused to do the loans! Anyone wanting to engage in flipping real estate for big money will have to find a source of funding other than banks and credit unions! Good luck - those are few and far between and charge too much in interest! My wife explained that nearly all of the Carleton Sheets-type real estate investment schemes rely on long gone mortgage financing before the anti-flipping laws.
Also, many “real estate investment gurus” recommend making deals with property owners and have the owner do the financing while you make payments to the owner over several years and then sell the property and pay the owner a lump sum out of the proceeds. My wife says that she has never known a property owner who wanted to engage in that type of deal. If the investment property is making money without the new buyer, then why should the owner enter into a deal that will require higher rents to make 2 people money instead of one?
Finally, my wife and her colleagues in her office made a very common, but sound observation. If someone has a truly profitable unique real estate investment program – why aren't those folks still doing it full time instead of “teaching” others. The money Carleton Sheets and all others like him make is out of selling information to fools who believe it will work. The successful students often made their money before the anti-flipping laws and now have either gone to work for their teachers selling outdated information OR have gone into the “real estate investment teaching” business themselves.
One of my wife's fellow brokers did come across a company that puts out a guide to real estate investment using current mortgage financing rules. I read the guide and found it interesting. It was meant for people who want to buy investment property and hold it for rental income or sell off a property or 2 ever couple of years. It was definitely not for those who still believe they can flip homes for big profits in 60 days. Banks and credit unions won't lend the money!
If they did, my wife and her colleagues would be making money by handling the purchases!! The flyer I read was from a company called The Corner Source – here is old email thecornersource@msn.com I don't do any real estate investment now, but this guide made sense and my wife says it is good and they don't ask for $1000s for seminars!! Take it for what it is worth. Real Estate Flipping is Illegal and people are in jail for it!!
David
Las Vegas, Nevada
U.S.A.
This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 2/10/2004 3:40:39 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/tv-advertisements/carleton-sheets/carleton-sheets-real-estate-ri-edj2a.htm.
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Updates & Rebuttals
#1 Consumer Comment
Book advocating 'buy and hold' might have more merit
AUTHOR: Joel - Brooklyn (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Saturday, March 20, 2004
"The Weekend Millionaire's Secrets to Investing in Real Estate" by Mike Sumney and Roger Dawson advocates some of the same ideas such as keeping the price down with seller financing, but is strongly opposed to flipping.
On the contrary, their whole point is to get rich slowly by buying marginally profitable properties and holding onto them so that they will grow over time into a larger cashflow.
I'm curious what you and your wife think of this approach. It seems far more reasonable, but still smacks a bit of too good to be true. Besides, these guys claim to be friends of Carleton Sheets. In your wife's experience, does seller financing exist at all? If so, under what conditions?
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#2 Consumer Suggestion
WAKE UP and realize that the vast majority of infomercials are SCAMS
AUTHOR: RJ - Camden (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Sunday, March 21, 2004
Thanks for making ME rich! You said: "I was confused and frustrated that the folks on the infomercials made the system work and I could not."
When will people FINALLY WAKE UP and realize that the vast majority of infomercials are SCAMS. The only people making money are the one's SELLING TO YOU.
The following disclaimers flashed in very small, dull lettering at the bottom of the screen SHOULD BE VERY BIG CLUES:
RESULTS NOT TYPICAL [NOT REPRESENTATIVE of what to expect.]
UNIQUE EXPERIENCE [This is the ONLY ONE of its kind.]
RESULTS WILL VARY [Results will be DIFFERENT!]
INFOMERCIAL TRANSLATION: If you are dumb enough to buy into this crap, you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding! But thanks for making ME rich!
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#3 Consumer Comment
To Joel in Brooklyn
AUTHOR: David - Las Vegas (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Monday, March 22, 2004
Joel:
My wife says that very few investment property purchases are done with seller financing, because it goes against the very rationale for selling. Seller financing sticks the seller with the mortgage liability, while the buyer gets a portion of the rent and no liability. The contracts drawn up for such scam deals are worthless. The seller gets the mortgage on their credit report and must now pay the bill if the buyer skips town.
Investment property owners, when they sell a property, are doing so because (1) it is not profitable anymore or (2) want a large portion of cash to go after more profitable properties.
In either case, why would any serious real estate investors want to take the chance on someone's sloppy seconds?
My wife and her colleagues agreed that they do not get involved in any of the "real estate gurus" schemes because it always involves skirting around traditional mortgage lending for some reason that is close to being illegal. Or, the terms and complexities of the deal are so huge, that it becomes more trouble than it is worth.
The real estate investors that have been the most successful and continue to be, according to my wife and her colleagues, are the ones that buy investment properties, hold them for rental income and tax write-offs, and pull the equity out after 3-4 years and use it to buy more. My wife's point is that you will make more money on the difference between rent payments and mortgage payments than you will on the actual property appreciation.
She says that her investor clients sell properties when they begin to see signs of "rent stagnation." then they sell and move onto better properties.
She thinks it is better to get income from the rents as it can be written off. Income from property sales gets hit hard with capital gains taxes. Also, she said that over 30 states have adopted laws requiring a real estate broker's license if a person sells more than a certain number of properties in a few years.
Finally, she said that many of the real estate gurus successful students have reached the same conclusion that the gurus did! It is far easier to make money teaching people about a system than actually doing it. Her colleagues said that they get a half dozen or so calls every month from people wanting to buy investment property with no money down and complete seller financing! All of them get turned away. Figure each of those folks probably spent $1000 or more for the materials and at least one seminar. See how the money adds up? In Vegas, we get at least a "free seminar" every month and people flock in by the 1000s.
Buy investment property, keep it for rental income, use the accumulating equity as cash for more properties. 95% of all successful real estate investors do the same. Good luck.
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#4 Consumer Comment
In response to David, in Las Vegas, so easy for those who can't make it happen to knock those who are doing it
AUTHOR: Roland - Buffalo (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Tuesday, March 23, 2004
There are many people who buy the real estate packages from Carleton Sheets, Ron LeGrand, the Rice brothers, and others. Some are successful and some are not.
I have purchased many packages, attended seminars, and tried the various methodology as proposed by the "guru's." I purchased and sold over 65 properties.
Most of the methods will indeed work if used. So many buyers of the packages can't get to or past the first step, which is actually making offers.
David uses "his wife" as his most authoritative source for saying the guru's methods can't be done in today's financing world, due to increases in foreclosures. The increase in foreclosures is not a new phenomenon. The first question that comes to mind is, how many properties has David's wife bought and sold?
David and his wife have a very myopic view of the world of "flipping," as David calls it. Most people who are successful never go "on the carpet" of a financial institution. There is a myriad of other better means of obtaining financing.
Most successful real estate entrepreneurs do NOT use bank financing. Bank financing is extremely conservative (for the reasons David mentions) and cumbersome. It is also one of the slowest and most expensive means of accomplishing one's objectives.
Can it be done, as the guru's profess? Certainly. Can anyone do it? Likely not. It takes someone with a modicum of education, some backbone, and a willingness to attempt something new. And, after attempting and failing, one needs to just keep trying. As we all know, "failing forward," is what it takes.
It is so easy for those who can't make it happen to knock those who are doing it. Lead, follow, or get out of the way! There are thousands, perhaps millions of independent people buying and selling real estate to earn their living and there always will be.
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#5 Consumer Comment
Ok Roland does it., You wouldn't mind listing some of the property addresses for the rest of us?
AUTHOR: David - Las Vegas (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Tuesday, March 23, 2004
Roland:
My source of information is my wife, a mortgage broker of 12 years. I never said I did any type of real estate investing - so the only homes I have bought and sold are the 2 I have owned as my primary residences.
It sounds like you have had very good luck using the strategies presented by the real estate gurus? You wouldn't mind listing some of the property addresses for the rest of us? Or could you provide a mailing address so those interested could get a look at the signed HUD Settlement Statements just to verify our doubts? Such documentation would be a powerful sign that my wife and I, among many others, are dead wrong. Thanks.
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#6 Consumer Comment
Response to David's request
AUTHOR: Roland - Buffalo (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Wednesday, March 24, 2004
David, I'm going to provide 4 of many addresses. The first two were sold and I'm cashed-out. The other two I'm still collecting mortgage payments.
4575 SE Williams Way, Stuart, FL
4828 SE Avalon Drive, Stuart, FL
28 Rose Place, Utica, NY
41 Tracey St., Whitesboro, NY
Better though, than any addresses, etc., I'm going to provide just one example, then I'm going to get off this soapbox and back to other gainful objectives.
Here's a house I bought in Herkimer, NY back a few years ago. A lady called me back a year after I first looked at her home. She asked if I was still interested in buying it. My answer was that if it was in the condition I saw a year earlier, I was definitely interested.
I met the lady at the house, did a 5-minute walk through, and we started negotiating. I knew the house was worth approximately $50,000. She had it listed earlier and it went off the market a couple times and was exasperated with the entire professional real estate industry.
We settled on a price of something like $18,800 cash, closing in 45 days (I wanted 60 and she wanted 30, so we compromised on the 45 days). I found a new buyer for the house within a couple weeks for a price of $43,650 (PFA number, which I chose). The appraisal came in at approximately $51,000.
I created a new first mortgage of approximately $34,900, and a second mortgage of approximately $8,800. The buyers had about $1,500 cash down.
At closing, I sold the first mortgage (to a company, which buys mortgages) for approximately $27,900. I walked away from the closing with about $10,000 cash and the $8,800 second mortgage, and did not use any of my money.
Now, I know this is a "small deal," however, it's just one method of many. The seller won because the house was moved quickly. The buyer was happy and won, because they bought the house about $7,000 under appraised value. I won because I made a profit with no outlay of money (absolutely no repairs to the house, not even changing the locks). Of course, my buyers agreed to buy the house as-is, as it was in good condition.
David, coincidentally I attended a 2-hour John and Greg Rice "get 'em in the funnel" free seminar last evening. They provided some free information and basically were pushing a $3,687 price for a three-day weekend seminar, several books, and a lifetime of phone contact (to assist with making deals). The price was eventually dropped to $1,597.
I did not buy the package, as I was there just to keep abreast of what's happening in the guru world, however, I've met John and Greg Rice and they do what they advertise. I got enough information last evening (for free)to be able to use one of their methods to purchase real estate if I choose to do so.
Well, I'm gone from this website, as I must get back to work. The above info, as all I've provided is just MHO, FWIW! Carry-on, some will succeed, others won't! Which category will YOU be in? BTW,
CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.
Byeeee.....
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#7 Consumer Comment
Still waiting to hear if seller financing exists. ..typical shill
AUTHOR: Mike - Radford (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Wednesday, March 24, 2004
Roland's comments sound like typical shill hype. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that what he said is true. It's what he didn't say that seems more important.
First he didn't touch the subject of seller financing. If seller financing really exists, it would only be done on properties that are overpriced. If the price were right, the seller would be able to sell to someone who had cash or third party financing. So any property where the seller has to engage in such shenanigans to sell it is overpriced and not a good investment. It makes no sense for a seller to do it otherwise.
Roland says "most of the methods (that Sheets and others promote) work." He doesn't mention any in particular. I'm sure Sheets promotes a lot of stuff that does work, like "buy low, sell high" (and "fail forward," whatever that means) But the marquee tease of these programs is that secret schemes will be revealed to allow deals with "no money down," "cash at closing" (i.e. less than no money down), and "seller financing". He's trying to sell the program to people who don't have cash or good credit. The first two schemes have already been widely discredited and the third is highly dubious. Sheets is taking peoples' good money and giving them bad advice. The methods that Sheets claims will work are not widely (if ever) practiced in the real marketplace, not because they are closely guarded secrets that only gurus know (but are willing to sell to anyone for a few hundred dollars), but because the methods DON'T WORK.
I'm sure Roland used either cash or good credit or both to start his investment deals (if true) then started rolling the profits from one deal out to finance the next one. That's what capitalists do. Sheets tries to sell a dream to people who cannot play in that game because they have neither cash or good credit. Without those resources, it is not possible to invest in real estate competitively with the many other investors who do.
Most of these widely advertised programs seem to be mainly a way for the guru's to compile lists of potential victims for higher priced programs. They want consumers who believe they really can get rich quick, if they just knew a few more guru secrets. So once someone buys the introductory program, they are targeted for a hard sell for more expensive worthless schemes.
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#8 Consumer Comment
your deals are done as cash involving no traditional mortgage lender
AUTHOR: David - Las Vegas (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, March 25, 2004
Thanks - Roland
As I suspected, Roland, your deals are done as cash involving no traditional mortgage lender since they will not fund the type of deals you do. You seem to look for distressed sellers and offer low ball cash-on-the-spot payments - nothing wrong with that - just not that many such folks left.
My wife will be able to access the HUD Settlement Statements for the properties you listed and clarify how the financing went.
Roland, you and I and my wife are in agreement about one thing. As long as the property purchase or sale involves cash, then the rules for 95% of all real estate transactions go out the window.
You made it clear that you DID need your own funds to get the deal done. That directly flies in the face of what all of the real estate gurus sell.
Seller financing without dealing with mortgage lenders and having to follow their rules involves either (1) cash or (2) using unsecured personal loans or established lines of credit. Bottom line - both require sellers to have cash. Thanks for proving my point, Roland. Best wishes looking for distressed sellers.
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#9 Consumer Comment
To good to be true ..Rolands response is pure shill crap.
AUTHOR: Alan - St. Paul (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, March 25, 2004
AS I read Rolands response, let me see if I got this right. A lady had her home on the market, so she must have had an idea of the market value. Fast forward, home does not sell at current price, so she calls Roland who buys the house at less than half of appraised value? Then Roland turns around and does what the original home owner couldn't do and that is to sell the house at the fair value? Did you have a gun at her head Roland because for a deal like this to happen you must have made an offer that she could not have refused. Rolands response is pure shill crap.
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#10 Consumer Comment
THERE ARE OWNER FINANCED DEALS AND FLIPPING IS NOT ILLEGAL
AUTHOR: Jason - Evansville (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Saturday, May 15, 2004
First of all, maybe owner financing is not popular in the area that you live in. However, after going to 4 courthouses in my area looking for owner financed mortgage notes (I work for a note investor) I realized that there is quite a market for this in my area. I live in Indiana by the way. It is just crazy to say that owner financing doesnt happen very often, but like I said, maybe it doesnt in your area or part of the country. I am an investor locally as well, and the deals that I do are on fixer upper houses. Now here is proof that owner financing does happen. I buy these houses, fix them up, and then sell the houses on contract (which means that I finance the deal) Now you are wondering, why would I do that. I call it speed selling, as would some other Real Estate Guru's. Once I qualify a buyer, I then have them sign the promissory note and contact a Mortgage note Investor company. The company then buys the note from me at a slightly discounted price. When you are dealing with fixer uppers in a not so good part of town, this is a great way to have a fast turn around and quick sale on your investment.
Now to flipping. Flipping is actually really known as wholesaling. The flip deals that you hear about that are illegal involve bogus appraisals on houses. This is where someone buys a house cheap, gets a inflated appraisal, and then sells it for a ton of money. That is illegal. However, wholesaling is not, I did it today. You enter into a purchase agreement on a house, go ahead and get the title work going and set a closing date. Within that part of time you seek out an investor that will then purchase the contract from you for a fee. It is a good way for beginner investors to build up capital with no money down and little or no risk. Thanks for your time.
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#11 Consumer Comment
program works for some and not for others
AUTHOR: Fran - Indianapolis (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Monday, May 24, 2004
Thanks Roland for the thumbs up...I just purchased the Carlton Sheets program. I have not had it for 30 days yet and I will be closing my first deal this week. As Roland said, the program works for some and not for others. I guess I wanted it too bad to fail. But because the program did not work for some, that does not mean you should downgrade to others. For the man who's wife is the broker, you should tell her to catch up on her Real Estate Training, because Carlton Sheets is going to be the reason I will be putting $15,084 into pocket on my first deal. If their teachings cannot make money, then tell her to explain that. Keep in mind it has not even been 30 days since I purchased his materials. I feel like this, WHATEVER Carlton Sheets wants to sell me, I will buy!!
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#12 Employee
Carleton Sheets Program Does Work...buy properties that need rehab
AUTHOR: Bruce - South Bend (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Saturday, June 26, 2004
I purchased the Carleton Sheets Program in 1994. I am a Real Estate Broker in my area and have had great success specifically in buying properties for rental investment. Additionally, I frequently buy properties that need rehab of some sort for significantly under market value.
I simply do the rehab and sell the properties in the market for more than I paid. Flipping is one of those "nice-to-hate" buzz words that gets people all worked up. If you as an investor buy a property at a price below market value, fix it up, and resell the property......you have in fact flipped the property.
Use a realtor if you can. He or she will do all of the up-front work to guarantee that your business is legal and practical. I take before and after pictures of my properties so that it is very obvious what was done. I buy and sell about 5 homes a year.
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#13 Consumer Comment
Enough "Dog & Pony" shows
AUTHOR: Kristine - Las Vegas (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Monday, June 28, 2004
I am and have been a mortgage broker for 15 years. I hold a realtor's license and have had one for 8 years.
Living and working in Las Vegas, Nv., I am lucky to be in one of the best real estate markets in the U.S.A. I have never done any real estate transactions with any borrower trying to peddle any of the real estate gurus crap. No federally-licensed mortgage lender does. Period. The actions of the real estate gurus and their scam students who deliberately engaged in real estate flipping cost the mortgage industry billions. Many of the investors and appraisers are in jail now.
Because of that fact, there exists no traditional mortgage lender who will allow any property to be reappraised and sold sooner than 90 days. Wells Fargo's subprime lending division just created a mortgage program that allows properties to be reappraised after 90 days of ownership. However, the underwriters make sure that property is well worth the reappraised value.
Any increase over 10% of the original purchase price must be documented by written receipts for improvements made. The infamous example of repainting a home and getting an additional $15,000 of appraised value is crap. Yet, Carleton Sheets uses just that example in his materials and infomercials!
If you are lucky enough to find private investors, then you can do whatever you want to. If you rehab homes and can find a borrower stupid enough to pay an extra $15,000 for a coat of paint then go ahead. The buyer must have private funding to get the deal done.
But, don't take my word for it - anyone thinking of trying Sheets or any of the other "peddlers" methods needs to see an experienced bank underwriter first and get the reality of mortgage lending. If you are convinced that you can find private investors to do your "get rich quick" garbage, then go right ahead. Fact - over the last 40 years, more than 95% of all residential property transactions were financed by mortgage banks. If you want to try and fit into the remaining 5%, Best wishes.
All of the successful real estate investors I know, whether I did their financing or not, have used the tried and true traditional mortgage lending practices to make their money.
To date, I have not seen one HUD settlement statement from one of the real estate gurus transactions to show how the financing was done! I wonder why? All of the real estate gurus claiam that traditional mortgage lending is too tough! Crap! I can put a borrower with a 620 middle credit scoes into a 2-unit owner-occuppied duplex for only the price of a year's worth of homeowner's insurance! The closing costs are rolled back into the mortgage since I have access to traditional mortgage lenders who will lend up to 103% of the purchase price!
Why aren't any of the real estate gurus advertising that? Why would any beginning real estate investor hunt for a private funding source, when they could contact any mortgage broker and get the financing in 30 days?
37 states currently require anyone selling more than 4 residential properties in a year to have a realtor's license! How many of the people claiming success with Ssheets' stuff have such a license? If you don't - welcome to the world of real estate fraud. Again - don't take my word for it - contact your local state agency in charge of real estate. All it takes is a phone call.
Robert Allen and Russ Whitney, 2 real estate gurus, have bankruptcies and open civil judgments against them. Hmm - sounds odd for the success they claaim with their methods?
Carleton Sheets does all of his work from Florida. Guess why? Florida is one of the few states that have backed away from predatory lending laws, real estate flipping laws, and do not require realtor licenses to make multiple sales of properties.
For anyone thinking of wasting money on any real estate get-rich-quick scam - go to one of the free seminars. ask to see HUD settlement statements and copies of cashier's checks for the money everyone says they walked away from the closing table with. Make sure the checks list the bank or credit union doing the financing. Likely the entire deal was done by private investors.
Finally, for all of the folks who are sold on Sheets and other's programs - just make sure you pay your capital gains taxes on all of that profit you make from those home sales! Because when you use banks and credit unions - they report for you! Maybe that is why Sheets and others run and hide when they hear "traditional mortgage lending."
Oh - I will never give up my commission to a borrower who needs that money to close a deal! Why would I be that idiotic to think I would see my money anytime in the future from a real estate investor who can't cover closing costs?
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#14 Consumer Comment
Response to Kristine in Las Vegas. It's just as big "Flipping Deal".
AUTHOR: Bruce - South Bend (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Saturday, July 03, 2004
Kristine obviously has issues. 22 years as an investor and 10 as a Real Estate Broker. Here is my last "Flipping Deal".
Stats:
** BOUGHT PROPERTY IN MAY 2004.
** PROPERTY WAS AN ESTATE.
** PURCHASE PRICE WAS $25,000 UNDER COMPARIBLES FOR THE AREA DUE TO SOME WORK IT NEEDED.
** DID 10,000 OF WORK ON THE PROPERTY.
a. New siding
b. New roof
c. New furnace
d. New kitchen and bath.
e. Misc. cosmetic work.
**LISTED THE PROPERTY FOR $60,000 ($25,000 MORE THAN PURCHASE PRICE).
**RECEIVED OFFER FOR $58,000 FROM FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS IN JUNE.
**THEY OBTAINED AN FHA MORTGAGE FROM LOCAL LENDER.
**CLOSING IS SET FOR JULY 9TH.
I USE THE WORD "FLIPPING" EVERY CHANCE I GET. I DO IT TO GET UNDER THE SKIN OF THESE MORTGAGE LENDERS THAT THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING. I HAVE NEVER HEARD CARLTON SHEETS SAY ANYTHING ABOUT "PUTTING A LITTLE PAINT ON A HOME AND RESELLING IT FOR $15,000 MORE THAN YOU PAID FOR IT." THAT BEING SAID...CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:
LET'S SAY SOMEONE HAS A HOME AND NEEDS QUICK CASH FOR SOMETHING. THEY DON'T WANT TO LIST THE HOUSE AND WAIT FOR AN OFFER. WHAT IF YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME AND THIS PERSON AGREES TO SELL YOU THE HOME AT $15,000 BELOW MARKET VALUE IN A QUICK SALE. AFTER YOU PURCHASE THE HOME YOU NOTICE THAT IT NEEDS TO BE REPAINTED......YOU HAVE THE HOME PAINTED AND THEN PUT IT ON THE MARKET AT MARKET VALUE BACKED BY COMARIBLES FOR THE AREA. SOMEONE BUYS THE HOME AT MARKET VALUE.....AFTER THE SALE YOU REALIZE THAT YOU SOLD THE HOME FOR (ABOUT) $15,000 MORE THAN YOU PAID FOR IT. WOW! IT WORKED. I HAVE NEVER DONE THIS BUT I MIGHT TRY IT JUST FOR GRINS SOMETIME. MOST OF THE PROPERTIES I PURCHASE NEED MORE WORK THAN THAT. THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL ILLEGAL ABOUT BUYING A PROPERTY....FIXING IT UP......AND RESELLING IT AT A GREAT PROFIT. IF THESE IDIOTS WANT TO KEEP USING THE TERM "FLIPPING" JUST TO HAVE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT, LET THEM. AS FOR ME I'LL JUST KEEP MAKING MONEY AND PUTTING GOOD PEOPLE INTO HOMES THAT DO NOT NEED ANY WORK.
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#15 Consumer Comment
question Bruce
AUTHOR: Cally - Decatur (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Tuesday, July 06, 2004
My fiancé called and requested information on the Carlton Sheets program. I was wondering did you purchase the Sheets program? We aren't looking to get rich quick or anything, but we do enjoy fixing up houses and making repairs. For us the out come is worth what ever work is involved. We feel that if we are able to help first home buyers get into a house they will love for many years to come. My other question is can you achieve this with the way you go about dealing with the properties you work with? Any feed back on this would be extremely grateful.
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#16 Consumer Comment
Good For you - Bruce
AUTHOR: Kristine - Las Vegas (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Friday, July 09, 2004
Wow, Bruce. You got all that rehab work done in less than 60 days AND found a buyer willing to pay fair market value for the home?
And you (apparently) found a buyer who found a traditional mortgage lender, FHA no less, that is willing to issue a mortgage far above the purchase price less than 90 days ago? Please list the name and address of the bank and the loan officer who handled the transaction for the buyers.
You will find all of it on your copy of the HUD settlement statement. Since FHA, by federal law, will not allow any property to be purchased above the original purchase price plus any documented improvements without at least 6 months seasoning - the bank loan officer that just did the deal committed bank fraud! I suspect a "juiced" appraisal.
If you provide the property address, I can and will get a copy of the final HUD settlement statement and post it for all to see exactly how the transaction went down. To date, no student of any real estate guru has been willing to post closing settlement statements. I wonder why?
But clearly Bruce you are having unlimited success. Great - Best wishes to you.
To Cally - go ahead and spend a couple of $100 on Carleton Sheets stuff. Better yet, try his money back guarantee and let us know how it works. Let us know what you think.
Time to get back to the real world of real estate investment.
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#17 Consumer Comment
Carleton Sheets not a rip off for us....We have been on the infomercial.
AUTHOR: Jerry - Winston-Salem (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Sunday, July 18, 2004
I have been investing in real estate for about 9 years now and got started with the Carleton Sheets course. I did not buy any other courses and have been able to buy many properties with no money down. I own rental property and I also buy fix up and sell property for profit. We have been on the infomercial. I am on the current one showing now.
We were not paid for our appearance nor told whay to say on the commercial. The last property I bought was in May. I walked away from closing with a deed to the property and $6,200.00 to do the repairs. I have a lease through section 8 housing anf the house will be ready to move into next week. All of the things said about the course have been true for my experience. I neither sell his course or get any money from the sale of it, nor from my TV apperances.
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#18 Consumer Comment
Too interested not to comment
AUTHOR: Rich - Carthage (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, September 02, 2004
I have read all of the above comments with a significant interest. I have purchased Carleton's course and books by Robert Shemin. Although the books do not walk you through a transaction step by step, they do give you a very good idea of how to do it. After having Carleton's course for 3 weeks, I found a 2 bedroom, one bath house for sale that met Carleton's recommended criteria. I contacted the owner and to my amazement he offered owner financing with $5000 down and 8% interest.
This blows the other gentleman's idea of "who would want to do owner financing anyway" right out of the water. I know that he will most likely respond by saying this is only one owner. I also have a gentleman who I do computer work for that knew I was interested in real estate and offered to sell me one of his duplex's with no money down, and 100% owner financing if I paid closing costs. This can be done if you find the right people. Can it be done every day? Probably not, but as with any job, it requires work on your part and is not a get rich quick scheme.
As for the "flipping" deal, the Fed anti-flipping regs, to my knowledge are limited to HUD mandates on FHA insured properties. They do not apply, nor were they intended to penalize loan companies funding non-FHA insured loans. However, uninformed lenders have developed the misinformed mind-set that "flipping" is illegal and properties need to be seasoned by 90+ day ownership with deed acquisition proven through recording. AGAIN, THIS APPLIES TO END BUYER LOANS THROUGH END_LENDERS BACKED BY FHA INSURED LOANS ONLY.
Most properties that are aquired and need a little renovation work, will take at least 60 days or more which will easily satisfy the seasoning period in most cases. There was one correct statement however; purchasing a HUD foreclosure home will require that you obtain traditional financing. I have recently looked at a HUD foreclosure that lists for $28,600. This home does not have any real heat source other than one propane furnace and so states in the listing. The home also needs a new roof, carpet, Lots of interior paint, light fixtures, and the kitchen needs a complete makeover. There are also no appliances to speak of. In proper condition, this house should sell for around $45-48K. Improvements will cost in the neighborhood of $18-20k.
If an offer was made and accepted at $19-20K, it would take at least 90 days to effect all necessary repairs. I have spoken with HUD reps and lending institutions on this home. because the owner will not make an "execessive" profit on this deal, HUD and the lenders would lend money on it. Again, this is not a huge money-making endeavor that will make you rich over-night or even in a year, but it can be done with AND without traditional means.
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#19 Consumer Comment
Questions for Rich
AUTHOR: Tim - Valparaiso (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Saturday, September 04, 2004
My question/statement doesn't really go to the merits of the Carlton Sheets program per se. I ASSUME this program is a scam for several different reasons, but I'll refrain from getting into those.
My question/statement is for Rich. For reference, here's the quote that's giving me trouble: "uninformed lenders have developed the misinformed mind-set that "flipping" is illegal and properties need to be seasoned by 90+ day ownership with deed acquisition proven through recording."
First, are you sure that these lenders are making a mistake of law? I would assume that most lending companies have a team of lawyers that would be much more knowledgeable on what is and isn't illegal than you (unless, of course, you are a lawyer, which raises further issues).
If these lenders are not making a mistake of law, it seems to me that they are still making a good business decision. Lenders require title insurance before they will shell out money for a property purchase. Title companies will not insure a title wherein the seller's deed is not recorded.
You may think that title insurance is unnecessary. After all, who sells a house that they don't even own? Well, while that doesn't happen very often, people do, on a fairly frequent basis, sell a home that they are not legally permitted to sell. Such a situation may arise where a husband and wife own a second home and one of them decides to sell it unilaterally, or where two people own a home as joint tenants and one sells without the other's consent.
If such a situation arises, the buyer and the lender are pretty much screwed. When the spouse or joint tenant contests the buyer's right to ownership, the buyer loses the house and all equity therein, and the lender loses the lien.
There are a myriad of other ways in which an imperfect title can end up biting the buyer and the lender in the ass. Thus, lenders will not fund a property purchase without title insurance, and the title company will not cover a title that is incomplete. Even if an imperfect title only presents a problem in one out of every hundred cases, that one case can present a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Even with a clean title I can certainly see why lenders would require a 90 day ownership period of the seller. This gives a period of time where claims agaisnt the seller's ownership (i.e. fraudulent recordings, executed judgment liens, adverse possession etc.) may be filed, and further assures the lender that the seller has the legal right to sell the home.
With that out of the way, my question is this: how can this program be so successful if there are such massive encumbrances to doing what the program tells you to do? You have presented anecdotal evidence that seller financing can be done, but if you can't then turn the property over in a short period of time, what good is the ability to purchase it in the first place? There are two doors to this transaction, and you have only made it through one.
Turning over properties can be very lucrative, but I would never invest money in a program that teaches anybody with the money to buy it how to flip houses. Whether or not flipping houses is illegal is a question of law that I am not capable of answering. Whether or not the program will actually work is a question of fact, and I can see a few reasons why it wouldn't.
Here's what I would do, and what I imagine the Sheets successes have done: 1) purchase the home in the most feasible and least costly manner; 2) perform interior renovations; 3) Lease the house with an option to buy; 4) perform exterior renovations and ensure that the title is insurable during the lease period; 5) when the lease period is up, ask the tenant if they are going to exercise the option, if so, sell them the house if possible, if not; 6) extend the lease on a month to month basis, or find a new monthly tenant to lease until the house can be sold.
I wish you all the best of luck. If you put money into this program, and especially if you have invested sweat, money and time into doing the program, then I certainly hope it works out for you. Consider my advice above. If you haven't bought the program, I would advise against it.
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#20 Consumer Comment
Real Estate Guru Madness ..here is the way traditional mortgage lending works
AUTHOR: Lee - Milwaukee (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, September 16, 2004
I am an underwriter for Countrywide Home loans and have been both a mortgage broker and bank loan officer in the past. I have been in the mortgage industry for over 22 years. To everyone who claims to have walked away with cash at closing or flipped properties and made $10,000s, here is the way traditional mortgage lending works.
No retail or wholesale bank will ever allow any seller to sell a property for more than 10% over its original purchase price IF it has been owned for less than 90 days. If the property is to be sold before 90 days of seasoning, the original purchase price is used.
No retail or wholesale bank will allow any property to be sold for more than its purchase price or appraised value – whichever number is the lowest. So, no retail or wholesale bank will allow you to buy a property for $100,000, get it appraised for $120,000 and walk away from the closing with $20,000!
The only way buyers get “cash at closing” is by cutting an under-the-table deal with the sellers. For instance, the buyer agrees to purchase a property for $100,000 IF the seller agrees to give the buyer $10,000 in cash “outside of closing.” With such a deal, the buyer pushes an appraiser to get a fair market value of $110,000 and then changes the purchase contract to “buy” the same property from the seller for $110,000 instead of $100,000. The real question is why would the seller give the buyer $10,000 when they could sell the property for the full fair market value and keep the $10,000?
Such “under-the-table” deals are now being investigated by many state tax auditors. The $10,000 that changes hands is called “unreported financial concessions” and is 100% illegal. Realtors, mortgage brokers, and closing services companies are being indicted. But, don't believe me, visit:
http://news.wra.org/2004/August and read the article on “Artificially inflated property values” under “Top Stories.”
If you still think you can do what the real estate gurus claim, then go talk to a real estate attorney and a bank loan officer first. For everyone who claims to be making $$$$ flipping properties and getting cash back at closing – show me a HUD Settlement Statement. I have seen many other folks ask to see them and not one of you “successful real estate investors” has ever provided one.
I have asked the very same of Carleton Sheets, Wade Cooke, Russ Whitney, John Reed, John Beck, Robert Allen, and the Rice brothers and have never gotten one single HUD Settlement Statement for any property they claim to have bought or sold! Point proven.
None of the more than 3000 mortgage brokers and realtors I have dealt with over the last 22 years has ever agreed to give up their commissions for “future payments” from any real estate guru student. No underwriter I have ever known has ever approved a mortgage purchase where the buyer got cash at the closing. Period. Wake up – there is not one real estate guru that does not have at least one state attorney general after them for fraud. Wade Cooke is in federal prison, Russ Whitney and Robert Allen have bankruptcies and multiple civil judgments against them, Carleton Sheets is being investigated by 3 different state attorney generals as you read this.
If you want to buy the courses – go to eBay and get them for pennies on the dollar AND skip the constant telemarketing! Get a hint people – when you see the same students claiming to have gone from “rags-to-riches” over the last 10 years of infomercials – who wouldn't be suspicious?
So - if all you students of real estate gurus plan on using private investors or cash to finance your deals - have at it! If you plan on using any retail or wholesale mortgage lender - tough luck. But - if you do come across a federally-chartered bank or credit union that will underwirte your nonsense - post the info for all of us!
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#21 Consumer Comment
Carleton Sheets gave me an oppurtunity.
AUTHOR: J. W. - Winston-Salem (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, September 16, 2004
I have a good plan for real estate investing. Ifr there is anyone who doubts the Carleton Sheets method please come to winston-Salem, NC and give me a call to tour my properties I have now and the ones I sold with traditional financing. 336-806-1101
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#22 Consumer Comment
Whether You Think You Can or Think You Can't...
AUTHOR: Frank - Salem (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Friday, October 29, 2004
Very interesting comments from all of the above.
Since this report was in regards to flipping properties, I just wanted to add a few thoughts.
To preface, I did buy the Sheets package back in 1994. Things sure have changed. Back then, I ordered the package and when it was 2 weeks overdue, I called the company. They sent a second one out. A few days later, the original arrived and the next day, the second one arrived.
I called and asked them what they wanted me to do. They said, "Keep them both.".
So I got one and my girlfriend inherited the second. I still have the original today.
Sounds like they're doing the opposite now.
Prior to this, I had attended the National Superstars conference in LA back in Winter 1985, where ALL of the then-big names in "Real Estate Investing" appeared - T. Hoffman, R. Whitney, H. Morris, (can't recall if R. Allen attended), W. Phillips and a long, long list of others.
Carleton seemed the only one missing, so I wanted his input, too. His info was good, but because of all the other materials I already had, just seemed a bit light on deep detail. But still usable if one followed the steps and performed due diligence.
Thought 1) One way of "flipping" a property is to secure a Purchase Option on it at a discount (distressed seller or don't-wanter). Advertise the property yourself, or at least the option, then if a new buyer is interested, sell them your option to purchase. You never take title, you never fix it unless you want to. You are being paid for your negotiating skills, as well as the time spent looking for and at properties, not to mention your marketing and re-sale skills. Is there a law against that too now?
Thought 2) Everyone has a point of view on all of this. There's a reason it's called the banking industry. It's a business to make money. Pure and simple. So there are many laws out there to help protect the industry and preserve its money-making capabilities for it's participants. The legalese and financialese are mind-boggling and that means attorneys have to get involved and agents for you, agents for me, inspectors, insurers, ad nauseum...all taking a chunk of the change.
None doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. So I can certainly see where anything threatening this income stream, or telling "the public" how to go about some of it on their own would be cause for concern.
(Before I get trashed, I was doing mortgage underwriting, brokering and sales before I got bored. And before I saw it was headed down the 'discount road' where it is now. Both my parents were licensed Realtors.)
Thought 3) For those who choose not to participate in the wonderful world of conventional financing - such as free and clear owners and private investors:
All it takes to buy and sell a property is the appropriate contract between two people who understand and agree to the terms, along with a few safeguards to take care of both interests. Period. With the right two people, no bank or other regulated/regulating entity need be involved. Do the deal, record the deal.
It's not always Win-Lose, either. Win-Win is always preferable.
Thought 4) As for there not being any carry-back sellers out there and that it's all some myth or fairy tale - you're dead wrong. After I returned from LA, and, maybe more importantly, after talking in detail with OVER 200 sellers over 6 months, I finally came across a true don't-wanter.
He was in his 70's and owned 5-6 other income properties. Free and clear. He did not need a lump sum payment. He did not want a down payment, although he asked for one because "that's the way it's done". He didn't know why, but that's what he'd always seen and heard. He had a good retirement income and he also had good rental income.
After about an hour of negotiating on the phone and numerous repeated explanations, he agreed to 1) ZERO DOWN PAYMENT. 2) 10-year Agreement of Sale, but with 100 payments. 3) I'd retain the present renters, up their rent $25.00. 4) ZERO MONTHLY PAYMENT for up to 20 months IF the property went vacant. 5) ZERO INTEREST, although I offered him 6.75% more than his asking price (Which was within comparables valuation).
6) The tile would be held in escrow for the duration.
Today, that property is worth about $90,000.
So it took me 6 months to find this deal and negotiate it. You know, at $90,000 a pop, I might do that full time.
But - it's not mine. The stodgy title company took 4 times their usual time to get me back a promised comparables report. By then, the old man figured I'd inspected and rejected the property, so he offered the same terms to a kid he'd been trying to work terms out with. The kid "begrudingly" agreed...and they signed.
He just wanted to get out of the maintenance and management of property.
Why was he willing to do these terms? Because he'd just undergone a quadruple bypass less than a month before I happened along.
There's a reason it's called "creative financing". As much as the pillars of the financial industry would like them to be, not all creative financing deals are illegal or even a detriment to anyone. Except maybe the finance industry.
Thought 5) I have a personal acquaintance who started with nothing but a USED copy of the original Allen book and nothing else. He's more than a millionaire today, living in - Las Vegas. He dabbles at bussing tables just because it's fun.
So not everyone needs a course to get themselves into this endeavor.
From what I've read above, I suppose I may be called a shill now. Or someone will demand HUD-1's from me. So be it.
I just wanted to offer these experiences and also some advice, as one of the gurus used to say....
"Whether YOU think you can, or think YOU can't...you're right.". Whichever path you choose - good luck!
Frank N.
Salem, OR.
"I'd rather be a 5%'er than a 95%e'r any day."
PS - During the entire time I was actively looking for properties, every Realtors I spoke with told me what I was looking to do was illegal or impossible. Even after I'd already done it.
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#23 Consumer Suggestion
In response to the fellow who says that seller financing does not exist, he is simply wrong.
AUTHOR: Bill - Roanoke (United States Minor Outlying Islands)
SUBMITTED: Sunday, November 14, 2004
The main area where my company and I use seller financing is in the purchase of houses that are in a state of disrepair to the point where banks won't lend on them. The second major area where seller financing is seen is when people who own real estate as a mom-and-pop operation grow old and decide they don't want to manage real estate, but want to continue to get some income from it. The third area where I see seller notes is in micro-financing or in other types of financing that are not attractive to banks and brokers.
For instance, in Roanoke, VA, how do you buy a house for $20,000 which has serious foundation problems and is in imminent danger of collapsing?
First off, how do you buy a house for $20,000? Generally, to get any sort of financing, I have to go to the kind of folk who finance mobile homes and who make micro-financing their niche; otherwise it is seller financing.
However, as no bank will touch property that has serious foundation problems or fire damage, how do you purchase that? You have two choices -- cash or seller financing.
Say someone got a seriously damaged house as a "bonus" in a deal for five properties. They got the house essentially free and they want to dispose of it -- why wouldn't they take seller financing?
The place where seller financing is no good is in the purchase of cookie-cutter-style residential real estate. In that situation, seller financing makes no sense. But for selling houses nobody wants -- like fire damages houses, or houses with strucutural problems -- as well as larger types of properties that are just difficult to manage -- seller financing becomes a necessity.
I would guess that the fellow criticizing seller financing wouldn't know, for instance, how to re-finance a house that was in foreclosure -- and that his wife never brokers loans on properties that need to be rebuilt.
While its true these "advanced" practices aren't good for run-of-the-mill residential lending, they become more common in specialized types of investing.
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#24 Consumer Suggestion
Instead of buying from a guru, join a real estate investor association
AUTHOR: Martha - Acwoth (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Monday, November 15, 2004
As a real estate investor who considers learning all that I can necessary for success, I would suggest that the best place to learn is a real estate investor association. I am fortunate to belong to the largest association in the nation which is the Atlanta chapter of Georgia Real Estate Investors Association (www.gareia.org). The seminars, meetings, subgroups, and mentoring have been invaluable. Yes, I have spent some money on some of them and some have been free but the information applies to my geographical area. You could begin with the national association (www.nareia.org) to find out what your state offers. For those "experts" who have been posting discouraging remarks, I have two comments: 1)Those who can,do and those who can't or won't, criticize. 2)You don't know....what you don't know.
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#25 Consumer Comment
GURU-FOLLOWING IDIOTS
AUTHOR: Christine - Las Vegas (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Wednesday, November 17, 2004
If you want to dabble in seller-financing - go right ahead. you better have lots of cash of your own or someone willing to lend the cash to you!
Anyone can buy a crap house, put $10,000s into it and resell it after 6 months. The central issue that all of you "successful real estate investors" continually to fail to tell people is that If a buyer wants to purchase your inflated property, that buyer must have cash or find a private investor!
None of you have listed one single federally-chartered BANK OR CREDIT UNION THAT WILL FINANCE SUCH A PURCHASE.
Gurus deliberately trick students into paying $1000s for "boot camps" telling them they will learn the secrets. It is and always will be a bold-faced lie!
no matter what you believe or say, one fact remains proven by real numbers that can be independently verified. Over the last 25 years, over 95% of ALL residential real estate transactions have been financed through traditional mortgage lenders. Period!
Anyone still niave enough to believe that property flipping is easy, doesn't take any money, and can make you $10,000s needs to spend time looking at HUDs web site and reading the new rules governing federally-insured loans and HUD foreclosures and property flipping.
Whether legal or illegal, HUD and the FHA will not allow any HUD-owned home to be financed using an FHA loan with less than 6 months of ownership seasoning. That is the direct result of every guru pushing students into property flipping.
If that is not enough, go ask appraisers about property flipping. Many state regulatory agencies governing appraisers are warning their licensees about doing appraisals for suspected property flippers. Doesn't matter if it is legal or not - appraisers are being told not to do it or risk losing their licenses!
So to all you "gurus" spouting off about all your riches - go ahead and keep spewing your crap! Until you prove your point with actual documentation of your supposed deals - you are simply taking up space and oxygen!
You might as well tell people that "Anyone can climb Mt. Everest - you just have to go do it and keep trying!" Well Duh! That is easy to say unless you tell the prospective climber about the financial, physical, and emotional criteria needed for a reasonable chance at success!
Every guru is making their money off of selling desperate people their financial dreams. If the gurus were telling the whole truth - you wouldn't have all of the complaints on this web site and 100s of others! And you wouldn't have state attorney generals putting gurus and their scam-artist students in jail!!
Every guru uses 3rd party companies to legally insulate themselves from law suits. I wonder why?
Keep telling people that the guru's stuff works - you just have to keep trying and not listen to people who don't agree and stay focused and keep trying and don't give up and stay positive and revise your goals and pay for more mentoring ......
The real world real estate investors that I handle financing for ALL use traditional mortgage lenders and don't have to make up stories. They have the HUD settlement statements to prove it!
So - post the HUD settlement statements of all of your great deals or shut up!!
When blind human gullibility ends - Carleton Sheets and those like him will go out of business.
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#26 Consumer Comment
Guru magic doesn't work?!?! That's news to me!
AUTHOR: Ravi - Atlanta (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Wednesday, November 17, 2004
Been a full-time real estate investor since 1969 (that's 35 years folks). Bought something once from most all the guru's and 2 or 3 times from some. Can the techniques and tactics tought by the gurus really be done? Yes and no! Yes if 1) you take time to really learn the techniques, 2) work to find situations where they make sense (every situation and deal is different), and 3) use the right strategy for the right conditions.
Will every strategy work in every situation...of course not! Neither will your migraines be cured by having a root canal. You have to have the right solution for the right situation. When you do...voila(!), guru magic certainly will work.
My personal best? A 69 unit apartment complex taken over with no cash out of my pocket. In fact, once I got credits for security deposits, property tax prorations, etc., the seller wrote ME a check for $12,400.
To all of you who are doing deals and know this stuff works...this means you have put more effort into finding situations where it will work, instead of figuring out the 1,001 reasons why it won't work like these, er, like some people.
Please leave the doubters alone so they can enjoy the ride on their high horses. Go make some more money to solidify your financial future. We don't need more competition anyway.
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#27 Individual Responds
Sorry it didn't work out for you
AUTHOR: Jacquelyn - Magna (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Saturday, December 18, 2004
I personally owned the Carleton Sheets package and schemed through it and it takes you step by step for beginners.
PLUS! I know someone who actually applied those steps and was able to purchase a house with the program!
I believe in Carleton Sheets and I am sorry you now think it is worthless.
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#28 Consumer Comment
Lender Who Will Refi After 6 Months
AUTHOR: William - Roanoke (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Sunday, December 19, 2004
The individual claiming that one needs cash to flip properties is simply incorrect, and also ignorant of the business. They ask for the name of a lender that will re-fi such properties after 6 months as well. Recently, my company refinanced a property which we acquired for $25,000 (cash) and spent approximately $15,000 remodeling at 75% ($56,250) on an appraisal of $75,000 through Acoustic Home Loans, LLC of California at 7.95% and 2 points. We have another two of those deals in progress, and will probably do another half dozen more like them in 2005.
Anyone looking for a list of real estate lenders and investors (not banks, per se), should start by getting a list from bankrate.com. Call 60 or 80 brokers (for difficult properties, I have called as many as 150 looking for the deal I want) until you find one that can finance you .
Also, one complaining individual claims that one needs to sell the property after 6 months. This is also incorrect. My company refinances the properties and then hold them to rent. The property above is currently leased for $600 a month (an under market rent) against a monthly payment, tax and insurance included, of just over $500. At the current rent, when one includes vacancy and credit and expected repairs and maintenance, the property runs just over break-even, but the goal was to cash it out -- and, by removing a boarded / condemned property from the neighborhood, increase the value of all of our holdings there. In a year or so the rent will be raised, and the property will enjoy an even healthier profit.
As to HUD homes, the statement regarding seasoning requirements is ... silly. If HUD owns the home, where is the seasoning? Seasoning is the length of time you own the home. ;-D
As to using a corporate structure, anyone who is in business and not incorporated exposes themselves to unnecessary tax liabilities and legal exposure; every business venture with risk (and thus every venture) should be incorporated.
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#29 Consumer Comment
OMG I am confused now
AUTHOR: Curt - Aurora (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Saturday, January 08, 2005
this is all so confusing to me, i wanted to get into real estate but now i dont know...too many rules for one, and if you screw up yer in big trouble. Prison is not something i would enjoy. if anyone has any words of wisdom for me please let me know
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#30 Consumer Comment
CARLETON SHEETS COACHING SCAM!!!! FRAUD!!!
AUTHOR: David - Sacramento (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Wednesday, January 19, 2005
I just want to warn others who might be in the process of being pressured through telephone sales to purchase the Carleton Sheets coaching package. First they see how much credit you have on your credit card and they charge you as much as they can. They have the system rigged so that you will pay at least $3,000 for useless coaching. The coaching is the same as the CD's that you can get free on the internet. I bought the coaching when I was in a bind to make money and they charged me $4,000 on my credit card of course even knowing that I had just come out of bankruptcy. The ruthless salesman told me so many lies that never came true especially in the high priced Sacramento, CA market. Homes here cost about $400,000-$500,0000 for an average looking 1400 sq foot, 3 bedroom, 2 bath home in a mediocre neighborhood. They told me that I would be able to buy one within 30 days and flip it within 3 months and net a profit of $50,000. I found out that no one was willing to sell with seller financing and I certainly did not qualify for a loan because I was only making about $1500 a month. I was totally ripped off and when I asked for a refund Carleton Sheets sent his angry lawyers down my throat. This man tries to pretend he is the Mr. Nice Guy but behind the scenes and television screens he is as ruthless and cold as they come. Look at his video and listen to his phoniness on the telephone and his fake kindness and try to read between the lines. He has amassed a fortune by catering to the lower income people who buy his false dream. This man is a total fraud! When I bought the coaching, the coach himself said that I should not have been sold this package for such an outrageous price and the money I paid went to the salesman's commission. I wish someone would have told me about this company but I was too naive. I thought Carleton looked like an honest man. Things have changed I guess. The crooks now look as honest as they come. I guess that is the definition of a sociopath. Save your money and get the information for free on the internet. Don't give this greedy scoundrel a dime!
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#31 Consumer Comment
Seller financing
AUTHOR: Brad - Wausau (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Monday, May 09, 2005
Interesting comments from both sides. I have heard of Sheets, but have never purchased his information.
My wife and I have purchased a duplex using seller financing and got cash back at closing. The cash back was used for the down payment. The seller was a large scale investor. He purchased several properties from another investor at a discount. He had no problem with the deal. We all won. We used traditional financing on the deal as well. Make sure you disclose all creative financing to the bank. If you do this, you are not doing anything " under the table ". I was told that banks don't like creative deals. I have not had a problem in central Wisconsin, where I live.
Study the area of real estate you are interested in and find a mentor. I became friends with area investors at various clubs/gatherings. After buying a few lunches and making some follow-up calls, I had enough information and courage to take the next step. I found a buyers agent and we went to work.
We are having success with real estate, but are not doing this full time. Yet. (75 hours a week combined haha).
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#32 Consumer Comment
Carleton Sheets and other Real Estate Guru's.
AUTHOR: Matt - San Carlos (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Friday, July 08, 2005
Folk's You can go round and round debating this subject matter.
All of these real estate seminar companies are in one business - the education business. They sell seminars and related products, it just happens to be in the real estate field.
I have attended a half dozen+ of these seminars
(extended 3 day training as well) to investigate their claims and validity, and as a successful business professional I will say I am not condoning, or advocating any person or product or for that matter eliminating potential areas for success with these organizations.
As with any investment or cash outlay I would suggest due dilgence, and the ablity to not be hurt by non-success. Analogy - If you cant afford
to lose at the table (blackjack, Craps, roulette, etc..)then laying down $ may not be right option for you.
Most discerning individuals most likely will not
involve themselves with such entities with so many unanswered questions about these practices, especially only after a short one evening presentation. However, there are and always will be certain individuals that overcome numerous obstacles to be successful with some of these programs. To them - kudo's - keep working your
life to your liking, hopefully they are implementing an dispostion of gratitude and concern to truly help others along the way, and for those others to perpetuate the process. That's true success.
Let's look a little closer how these companies are set up.
As a previous person mentioned these guru's organizations are all incorporated via third party entities. Yes,no biggie there - any company or individual for that matter should legally limit risk and liability under current federal and state law. (Either C Or S Corporation filing should involve your tax advisor & a small business attorney)
Most of these Companies when utilizing infomercial media - employ a host of facilitator companies(mostly telemarketing or related org's) that place the orders for them in various markets around the country. (thus so many different 800#s even in the same regional market)In addition, these type of TM /"fulfillment" co's usally are representing a host of TV/internet products and customer service is twelth man on the deal team compared to "selling" and maximizing
profits. (No secret they get Bonus $ for these add-ons and that sometimes most unfortunately involves non-ethical monetary commision build-up)
It is here that numerous problems arise due to various factors not directly controlled by the originating company, of course they all are responsible in the long run for only working
with reputable and proven law abiding consumer org's. Well after closely looking into a multitude of these real estate training companies, that practice and mindset may be difficult to find.
This will apply to some while not to others, to some it may be moot issue, but to those out hard earned $$ it's no laughing matter. To these individuals may your matter be resolved in earnest and expeditiously, you certainly deserve it.
It's obvious why these Training companies charge so much after the "loss leader" "wet the appetite"
seminar because that's how they make their real money the profit starts kicking in after all the initial programs. Another Psychological aspect to the pricing is - "the more one puts into something the more they need from it" thus, the old adage "don't get anything for nothing" comes into play.
They want you to keep investing, the more you have involved the more difficult it is to cut bait and move on if it does not work for you.
For those that make Profit's on some deals they have a continued revenue stream for the :"belief factor" has been conquered.
For these people the training is tailored to be more fruitful since they are now really "bought in" and they are differentiated from those that are not getting the deals. Thus, for others it
a time and monetary waste.
Responding to the request for HUD Settlement Statements from all of these real estate guru's
and their members - FORGET ABOUT IT... Futile
and it really isn't applicable with the structure of their organizations.
Why?
It's all about creating an In-House Network ? In-House Holding Company / or Syndicate if you so desire to call it.
This is the nuts and bolts about these companies
Ever been to one of these Seminars and seen how the presenter, or the sales staff "light up" if your an homeowner - they like it
If your an homeowner with equity - they really like it
If your a multi-dwelling owner with equity - they really love it -
Do not have to ask why, they see $ signs for the syndicate.
For those with credit challenges the following certainly applies moreso
It's all about moving money around the network. This network of "investors" are the Mortgage / Lending Channel. They create a few primary lending sources(usually affliated in some manner)
and it is through these closely connected financial entities that the $ moves around.
They need the members to go find the deals and bring them to the network. Once a transaction
takes place using "OPM" (the network) the investors get a piece of the profit/ the member gets a portion (really a finders fee) subject to the deal they conduct agreeable to the seller who hopefully finds it to their liking given their
situation.
It is here that deals really exist- to those who say Seller financing is not doable - it is >
There will always be motivated sellers / distressed sellers / desperate sellers >
Finding them and with regularity is key, the difference between the success one looks for and realization of that success. Are they out here, yes - are they everywhere- of course not.
With more and more of these real estate training companies competing with each other - we are now seeing a host of intra-network deals, that are another reason housing pricing is creating bubbles
in certain markets nationwide. That and a new round of speculation with new construction, are primary inflationary factors fueling most markets.
+(lack of overall investor confidence in the stock market)
So for those out there wanting Hud 1'S on these guru's or students therof teransactions, give it a rest. Unless they did HUD/FHA, VA, Or conventional financing - and that is not their market, not going to happen- only non-conforming low & no DOC loans, or most likely Seller Lender $, or OPM within the network, are the way deals get done. Like it not, that's what they sell.
To Sum matters up -
I BELIEVE $$$ CAN AND IS BEING MADE, NO DOUBT
But this is only for certain individuals, willing to risk time, money, and hard effort - knowing that it should be an augmentation to your portfolio / regular work initially, then as circumstances change for the + would this be recommended F/T.
If you have the belief that these infomercials are brought to you only for you - you are too Naive and don't belong in such a marketplace to begin with. They are pitching a product/service to make profit and it's a gamble you must be in position to make.
To those with the resources already I say "batter up" find a mentor somewhere that will help you to
acheive. If it doesn't work you will know one more thing in life that adds to your experience list.
To those without the means/ this includes other family members or friends (borrowing from this arena can get really ugly) I say check out related material at your local bookstore/ library/ internet/ see about getting your RE License, check out local RE "clubs" and contacts related to making inroads into the RE market.
This will be a lot safer route especially if you are risk adverse. Who knows, with enough passion and asking you may that one person to mentor you that truly cares to pass on success without the large outlay of $$.
I hope this helps indivduals who are looking into
such programs, to those with ugly stories a little more clarity, and to those involved doing well - continued successes. I would entertain input if you have any additional info affirming or disputing this subject matter. Complaints are well established and should only be rendered if extremely unique. Input from anyone with their contact# who has done these deals on a continued long-term basis to substantiate your claims so I can incorporate it to offset the numerous complaint logs would be helpful for others future discernment.
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#33 Consumer Comment
Buying / flipping
AUTHOR: Joe - Tulsa (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Sunday, February 19, 2006
I to am a mortgage broker. Yes you can do no money down, walk away from the table deals. I know of a local bank (in oklahoma) that will lend (if you have a track record with the bank as an investor, good credit) 80% of the appraised value of the property, regardless of sale price. A friend of mine now has 7 or 8 rental properties that he has bought this way, and sometimes will walk away with cash. These are bank portfolio loans, not FNMA/FHA loasn. And yes, if you look in the real estate guide in your paper, you will see occasional ads for owner financed properties for sale. As to "Flipping" the following is a snippet from the FHA guides:
I. Background--HUD's September 5, 2001, Proposed Rule
On September 5, 2001 (66 FR 46502), HUD published a proposed rule for public comment to address property ''flipping,'' the predatory
lending practice whereby a property recently acquired is resold for a considerable profit with an artificially inflated value, often abetted by a lender's collusion with the appraiser. Most property flipping occurs within a matter of days after acquisition, and usually with only minor cosmetic improvements, if any. In the September 5, 2001, proposed
rule, HUD proposed to restrict flipping by establishing new eligibility requirements for properties whose purchase is being financed with FHA mortgage insurance.
As noted, property flipping involves the rapid re-sale, often within days, of a recently acquired property. Accordingly, HUD proposed
to prohibit FHA financing for any property being sold within six months after acquisition by the seller. The proposed six-month restriction
would not have applied to re-sales by HUD of Real Estate-Owned (REO) properties under 24 CFR part 291 and single family assets in
revitalization areas pursuant to section 204 of the National Housing Act (12 U.S.C. 1710). The proposed rule also provided for legitimate
transactions involving the quick and profitable re-sale of a recently acquired property, by authorizing HUD to grant case-by-case exceptions
to the six-month restriction where the lender demonstrates that the sales price of the property corresponds to its market value.
HUD also proposed to establish a new owner of record requirement for properties financed with FHA mortgage insurance. Unscrupulous
investors will often flip properties they have contracted to purchase (but have not yet acquired) by selling or assigning the rights to the sales contract, often for a significant profit. The September 5, 2001, proposed rule addressed this issue by providing that only those properties purchased from the owner of record would be eligible for mortgages insured by FHA.
Yes, can be done, but you need to WORK at it!
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#34 Consumer Comment
Cash at Close
AUTHOR: James - Pittsburgh (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, August 17, 2006
I am one that interested in getting started in real estate investing. Anyone who doesnt think that real estate is the best investment in the history of this country is flat out wrong. There is no denying that fact.
I have seen many posts here that question how you can get money back at close and call those situations plain crazy. I can vouch for those that do think this is possible.
I bought my house in Pittsburgh from an older couple. They were downsizing and had lived in the house for many years. They were asking $177,000 for the house that had been appraised for around that amount. The house was empty as they had already moved out. My wife and I went to our realtor and told her to offer them $164,000.
In my state the law says that you can get up to 6% cash back on the purchase price of the home. So the homeowner gave us a check for almost $10,000 at close. They got the check from us that day for the $174,000, we got the $10,000 check from them that day and everyone was happy. See, we got our mortgage for $10,000 more than our offer but got that $10,000 back at close from the very happy seller.
With so many baby boomers looking to downsize and or retire, there are going to be a lot of houses on the market that have this big equity build up. It's a good time to make money in real estate.
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#35 Consumer Comment
Do your homework David
AUTHOR: Kgoose - Baton Rouge (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Monday, November 05, 2007
David from Las Vegas has written to tell us how the zero down program (specifically Carleton Sheets) does not work. David, you need to open your mind up man. I just surpassed the $8M mark in properties that I own - or have an ownership interest in. For these properties I put down cash only one time - that was 10% down on a $186K - light industrial wharehouse - making my total cash investment - $18,600. This for a little over $8M in real estate - Thats EIGHT MILLION David. My net worth has just passed the $2.5M mark. My portfoiio is made up of apartment buildings, one 4 plex, some single family homes, and some industrial style wharehouses. I have found on more than one occasion a seller who IS INTERESTED in financing my deal, and actually I currently have a contract on a 35,000 sq ft office space where the seller will be carrying 25% of the $1.8M price tag. Not only that, but I've built in a seller credit to me for $50K at close AND the building will provide roughly $6K per month in positive cash flow.
Maybe you should have spent the extra cash for the "one on one" coaching. I did and it has made all the difference in my family's life.
I suggest you open your mind - spend some time - and look squarely at the opportunities you are trash talking.
Especially with the potential opportunities the market has created in Las Vegas in 2007.
Kevin H
Baton Rouge LA
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#36 Consumer Comment
A real education
AUTHOR: Experienced Investor - Savage (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Tuesday, November 20, 2007
The self-proclaimed amateur who wrote the inacurate information says more about him than it does about real estate investing, Carleton Sheets or his view of flipping.
I've been an investor and multi-business owner for over 15 years. There is no better time in history to invest in real estate than right now. I started with nothing and things progressed slowly until I ordered Carleton's course. Over the last decade I've gotten to personally know him and he is a wonderful, caring person who does still invest millions in real estate every year. At any rate, I have no reason to defend him other than the fact that the author of the complaint is inaccurate. The information in the course is easy to understand and very practical. Especially for the beginner. I started with one property and have owned over 2000 units and currently own over 500 rental units plus a couple dozen commercial buildings as well as mini-storage facilities, carwashes, etc. Over $16 million worth. And all the techniques are as valid today as they were 5 years ago or 15 years ago.
Now to address the mortgage side of things. I wonder if she is even still in the business. A few months ago it appeared easy for anyone to be a mortgage genius, but now you have to really know what you're talking about. I owned the largest mortage banking firm in Minneapolis for over 5 years before selling it. I know a thing or two about the mortgage industry. One of my current companies is the largest Credit Rehab organization in the midwest. So I know a little something about that as well. If there's one thing you can't do is rely on a mortgage professional to guide your financial future. There are many good mortgage professionals. And that's just my point. They are good at getting financing for people, gaining knowledge for investing should be garnered in other arenas.
For example, Flipping is neither illegal nor real estate investing. Flipping is a perfectly legal way of being a real estate speculator. You are buying low, doing improvements, and "hopefully" selling high. That's speculation just as buying stocks are speculative. Being a real estate investor means that you are buying property and holding that property over a period time taking advantage of appreciation, debt reduction, tax deductions, etc. What he's referring to is illegal flipping, which is the unscrupulous act of multiple individuals working together to defraud a buyer. It usually involves an appraiser, lender, title agent & an initial buyer who simply inflate the value of the property and pawn it off on an unsuspecting end buyer.
Bottom line, get off the bench and get in the game. But only after you have gained some valuable knowledge and set your goals. Don't let uneducated ney sayers hold you back. I've found that they fail at everything they do. It just happens to be real estate this time.
Best Wishes,
Dale
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#37 Consumer Comment
Fraud is illegal, not flipping.
AUTHOR: Harborstone - Jacksonville (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Tuesday, November 20, 2007
Dear Sir,
I found a couple of things wrong with your complaint. First, as titled, flipping houses (buying a house at a discount, repairing it, and reselling for $10's of thousands more) is not illegal... in fact that's the point. Second, where and what laws are you citing that say it is illegal to buy and sell "X" number of houses per year? That is absolutely absurd.
You mention "fake appraisals" I agree this is illegal. However, Carlton Sheets NEVER tells his students to inflate appraisals. Mortgage fraud is a crime, which from reading your report is what you're really getting at.
I can't help but rebut your complaint, because Carlton Sheets has never told anyone to inflate an appraisal, nor has he told students to engage in fraud. In fact, those practices can easily be avoided by using common sense and practicing good business. I am sorry real estate did not work out for you, but you are wrong to file a complaint for false advertising, when there are legitimate success stories of the Carlton Sheets program, and there are many who continue to use his system successfully. Also, the term flipping is not synonymous with mortgage fraud.
I found your report distasteful, inaccurate, and it really has accomplished nothing other than scaring people away from taking their chance to achieve financial freedom through Mr. Sheet's course, or the course of any other Guru. Real estate investing is still strong and legitimate in our country today, even with the current market. You can buy as man houses and sell as many houses as you want in a year, and the next year, and the next year. I can buy a house tomorrow morning and sell it the same day afternoon, legally. Conventional financing is not the only way to buy a house, there are many who use hard money lenders, private lenders, and their own money.
I can tell you right now, you will not go to jail for real estate investing. You will not go to jail for flipping. You will not go to jail, because you bought and sold 500 houses in one year. You will not go to jail because you make $25,000 for selling a house, every single week.
You WILL go to jail for mortgage fraud, and this my friend is the moral of the story. Not false advertising by Carlton Sheets, Not "flipping is illegal". It's incompetent ad unethical mortgage brokers and dishonest "wanna be" real estate investors trying to take short cuts, who are the problem.
I hope you decide to get back into real estate investing, all you have to do is use common sense, be honest, and take the time to do things right. Finding houses to buy is no hard, finding the money to buy them is not hard, and it's not hard to sell them and make a huge profit either. You (or anyone else) can do all of this, legally.
The American Dream is alive and well.
Good Day Sir,
Jason (Real Estate Guru)
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#38 Consumer Comment
flipping is trouble
AUTHOR: Ronald - Secaucus (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Friday, June 06, 2008
My wife bought the Carlton Sheets program a few years back and we stupidly paid the 250 for the cd's. The first thing I noticed right away was they pushed hard the pitch to purchase the one-on-one instruction for which you would pay thousands. The second thing i noticed was the cd's really only outlined basic infomation and stuff, no secrets were revealed (except for one.) Much of the approaches they recommended were eiter grossly unrealistic for the begiiner, or years to old and now illegal or just no longer possiable.
First off, the system, and what many say works relies on you getting financial backing from private sources (not banks or lenders.) This is something the average person simply does not have access to. Furthermore what person with money is going to hand over that much of their own money to someone with no real experince? You are a high risk and likely more than not your venture will not pan out with profits.
Secondly, many states, lenders etc have since changed or passed the laws. First subject title. You can no longer sell in most areas any property unless you first have a title for the property. This means you have to purchase and close it before you can sell it. Getting a title takes time and some money. No title, no money.
Thirdly, licensing. Many states, etc now require you you be licensed if you sell a certain amount of properies in a certain amount of time. The problem here is that many who did make money flipping homes did so by volume. You can no longer do the same thing so your only choice is a few sweet deals you might be lucky enough to find.
Fourth, many home owners looking to sell without a regular real estate agent for example do so to aviod the agents fees. They still want the best market value and no liability when the deals done. So getting a deal under market value is a slim chance in any many areas.
Fifth, location. Buying a run down house in a bad neighborhood or any area with problems like flooding or other problems may get you under market prices for a property but it will also make it near impossiable to resell. This is the location many gurus tell you to target. The second area that fits here is good nieghborhoods were the prices have topped out. See both areas are were you will likely find owners willing to cut a deal. In both areas, there are problems like: impossiable to sell in a timely manner, impossiable to make a profit, too many repairs needed to make a profit realistic.
Sixth, problem getting cash at closing. The seller is required to disclose all problems with a property, and something like a bad foundation can mean a property can never be sold except for the land. In areas where the market is topped out no one wants to sell at a loss, they have banks to pay off etc and they want to make money. You can receive money at closing, but only if the closing price is more than what is still owed to your lender for the remaining mortgage etc. By the way this is usuall paid to the seller, not the buyer. The buyer usually needs to sell the property first to make money. So this is where another problem is. You can't generally make money from buying a property, you must first own it, then sell it.
Seventh and last. Many of the mehods the gurus say to use are decades. Many of these same people are either in big financial trouble or in jail. Most, if not all gurus only make money by getting the next sucker to buy into their crap, otherwise theywould be doing real estate, not selling a rippoff cd to you. If you want o ignore everyones advice and believe these gurus crap, go ahead. Jail and bankrupcy court loves company.
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